| |
The following is a condensed version of a more in-depth interview
with Jim Rogers which will be available in its entirety as a special
report accessible on our web site www.europac.net
. Its great stuff, so make sure to download the report as soon as
it becomes available.
Peter Schiff:
In the late 1990's, most investors saw the brave new world of tech
as the way to instant riches. You, instead, were focusing on commodities.
Tech has collapsed, and commodities are booming. You were right,
of course.
Jim Rogers:
There was a great division between me and many other analysts in
those days. I can remember some of the TV interviews I gave in the
late 90s. The moderators were giggling and drooling over the latest
doc.com success, just when I was saying buy commodities and buy
China. By the end of the commodity boom, in 10 or 15 years, everybody
is going to be giggling and drooling on the financial TV shows,
and saying “buy commodities.” Of course, if I am on
the shows at that time, I’ll be saying it’s time to
sell commodities.
Peter Schiff:
You always stressed the overwhelming importance of potentially explosive
demand from China. You’ve also noted that the authorities
there would periodically try to rein in runaway growth to keep things
under control. It now increasingly looks like their overriding concern
is in fact to keep the economy growing at all costs, in order to
keep employment growing. What are your thoughts now on that score?
Jim Rogers:
Well, they’re still trying to keep the economy growing. But
the main thing the Chinese are doing is trying to avoid economic
bubbles. For example, they have been trying to cut back on real
estate speculation. Yes, China is interested in increasing employment,
and keeping the economy strong. . But simultaneously, they are trying
to keep things from overheating. The right sectors in China will
continue to be very buoyant.
Peter Schiff:
Let’s talk specifically about commodities and energy. Can
technology and alternative fuels rescue us from the commodity shortage?
I’m thinking about nanotechnology, nuclear power, gas hydrogenation
to provide clean-burning coal, solar energy, etc
Jim Rogers:
Yes, of course. Eventually this commodity bull market (which includes
energy) will come to an end, Peter. If history is any guide, some
time between 2014 and 2022. That’s based on history, and is
not a prediction. The reason commodity cycles are so long is the
tremendous lead time in rebuilding infrastructure, discovering and
developing new mines and oil wells, organizing new plantations,
etc. These enterprises take many years to come on stream. The average
commodity bull market has lasted about eighteen years. If we all
decided today to have wind power, it wouldn’t work. You can’t
get a windmill. You can’t change the world that quickly. And
solar is not competitive right now. Eventually it might be. But
if we all decided to have solar panels on our roofs, you can’t
get them. . Nuclear of course, is making a come-back. But it takes
years to build a nuclear power plant. And remember in the mean time
the old plants are all becoming obsolete.
There has been massive underinvestment in things like mining and
oil exploration. Agricultural land is left fallow. Plantations give
way to real estate development.
Technological changes are coming, of course. But it just takes a
long, long time. We don’t reverse these things quickly. Almost
every oil country in the world has got declining reserves. All the
major oil companies are quite open about the fact that they are
not replacing their reserves, not by discoveries anyway or development.
Maybe they’re buying other oil companies. But that’s
not increasing the amount of oil in the world. There’s going
to be something to cause this bull market to come to an end, someday,
but the emphasis should be on someday, because someday is a long
way, away.
Peter Schiff:
There is still a lot of money to be made by investing in these commodities.
Which brings me to my next question. Would you comment about the
differences between renewable commodities, like trees, agricultural
products, solar power, on the one hand, and depleting categories
on the other?
Jim Rogers:
If I were looking at commodities these days, I would look at things
like agriculture. Because agriculture, for the most part has moved
up less than metals or anything. . The amount of acres devoted to
wheat around the world has been declining for 30 years. The world
has consumed more corn than it has produced for five years in a
row. That’s never happened in recorded history. The worldwide
inventories are low, on a historic basis.
And, by the way, increasing agricultural production is not as simple
as just planting as few seeds. Take coffee, for instance. It takes
five years for a coffee tree to mature. You don’t snap your
finger, and magically fruit tress, cotton plants and soy bean bushes
appear. And in the meantime, the price of everything those farmers
use is skyrocketing. Natural gas, diesel fuel. labor, insurance,
etc.
Peter Schiff:
Possessing valuable commodities is one thing, but that means little
if they are located in geographically unsafe areas of the world.
Have you tended to concentrate your investments in the U.S., Australia,
Canada, New Zealand, for example? What geographic areas you like?
Jim Rogers:
Well, the countries that have raw materials are obviously going
to be a better place than ones that don’t. All other things
being equal. But remember those words, all other things being equal.
The Congo has huge amounts of raw materials. But I am not investing
in the Congo. I don’t think its going to be a good place for
my money. I prefer areas with lower geopolitical risk. Canada has,
perhaps, the soundest currency in the world right now, and a strong
economy. If you want to invest in North America, the best place
to invest is Canada. That’s the sort of place you want to
be focusing on in times like these.
Peter Schiff:
When it comes to investing in these commodity driven countries,
you don’t necessarily have to be invested in just the pure
commodity plays. Just about any investment in a commodity-oriented
country would benefit from the overall growth of that country’s
economy. And it is probable that the country’s currency would
also be strong.
Jim Rogers:
Well, there is no question that retailers in Canada or Australia
or Brazil are going to be better than in other countries. Anybody
in a country which has an economy that is expanding is better off.
Peter Schiff: How do you deal with the cyclical
concern that after 14 interest rate increases the U.S. economy may
slow down later in 2006 and into 2007. Would that have a significant
downward effect on commodity prices in the intermediate-term?
Jim Rogers:
I expect the U.S. to have a decline in the economy this year and
into next year. I don’t know how long the decline will last.
We’ll probably have a recession. It is probably going to have
an effect on some commodities, yes. But I would remind you, that
there is always correction in every bull market.
Peter Schiff:
I think from the American perspective, one of the big differences
between this commodity cycle and the cycle in the seventies, is
that then America was the world’s leading industrial economy.
We manufactured everything. We had all the machines, we had a trade
surplus, we had a current account surplus. Now it’s the other
way around. It’s Asia that is saving and manufacturing and
producing. They’ve got the factories and the productivity
and we’ve got no savings, a huge current account and a huge
trade deficit and all we do is run around and service one another.
Jim Rogers:
We were an incredible nation in the seventies. We are now the largest
debtor nation the world has ever seen. That’s another big
difference. I don’t want you to think that there won’t
be corrections, or there won’t be consolidation. But for the
most part, it’s a secular bull market in commodities.
Peter Schiff:
Unfortunately, I think that Americans will feel the brunt of this
commodity bull market on their standard of living much more so than
they did in the 1970’s because of the underlying changes in
the economy.
Jim Rogers:
And the currency situation makes things much worse in this bull
market than it was in the seventies.
Peter Schiff:
Which brings me to my next question. Your outlook on gold. You've
always viewed gold differently from other commodities. Why?
Jim Rogers:
The supply and demand dynamics for gold have been different from
other commodities for two or three decades. I own some gold, but
I’ve always tried to explain to people that they would make
more money in other commodities than they would in gold, because
of the supply and demand dynamics. Now that has been true for the
last decade or so. For lead, in fact, you would have made a lot
more money over the past thirty years, the past twenty years, the
past ten years, than you would have in gold.
Peter Schiff:
For a while the Goldman Sachs Raw Materials ETF was the only commodity
index fund available in that form. It has just been joined by a
cousin, the Deutsche Bank Commodity index fund. More may join the
party. Your thoughts?
Jim Rogers:
Merrill Lynch has just launched a tracker fund based on my commodity
index, The Rogers Commodity Index. The Goldman ETF has very serious
flaws, as far as I am concerned. The Merrill Lynch Fund is a wonderful
product, because it is the only financial instrument of which I
am aware where you can get 100% long term capital gains after six
months.
Peter Schiff:
Do you expect to see many more of these types of commodity funds?
Jim Rogers:
Of course. Right now there are over 7,000 mutual funds in which
the public can invest... There are fewer than 10 commodity funds.
By he end of the commodity bull market there will many more commodity
funds and products.
Peter Schiff:
Every good investment manager constantly asks him or herself: "what
would cause me to change my mind?" What would cause you to
change your mind on commodities?
Jim Rogers:
If someone discovers a gigantic natural gas field in Spokane or
Chicago, or there is a huge copper mine discovered in Tokyo, with
easily accessible product, of course it will have an effect. If
there is a dramatic increase in supply in a politically stable area,
it will have an impact on prices. But remember, in the commodity
world, it generally takes a long time to bring new supplies, new
discoveries to market. The basic situation is when supply and demand
are out of whack you are going to have a bull market. And they are
seriously out of whack now, and getting worse.
Peter Schiff:
If you look at supply and demand, the one thing that we know is
going to be in abundant supply is the U.S. dollar. And eventually
the demand for the greenback is going to drop significantly. So
that really can be the biggest factor, from an American point of
view, propelling the U.S. dollar price of commodities higher.
Jim Rogers:
That’s the icing on the cake. You can have a decline in the
dollar and you wouldn’t necessarily have a bull market in
commodities. Supply and demand are still the most important factors.
And the supply/demand imbalance currently is gigantic.
Peter Schiff:
And it comes from years and years of neglect and under-investment
in that area. And it is not going to change overnight.
Well thank you very much Jim. It is always a pleasure talking with
you, and I really appreciate the time you spent with us. I am sure
our newsletter readers will appreciate your insights.
|